The Locked up Living Podcast: Surviving and thriving in prisons and other challenging environments

Writer and former NPR correspondent Sarah Chayes joins David Jones and Naomi Murphy to discuss how corruption operates as a system—not merely as isolated acts of misconduct.

Drawing on her reporting in Afghanistan, her work advising senior US military commanders, and her books The Punishment of Virtue and Thieves of State, Chayes describes the networks that link money, power and political influence. She reflects on the risks faced by people who challenge corrupt systems, how public trust can erode, and why corruption should not be treated as a problem confined to other countries.

The conversation also explores her changing perspective on public institutions, the limits of reform, and where she finds hope in imagining new ways for society to relate to the living world.

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/585789/on-corruption-in-america-by-sarah-chayes/

In this episode

How Chayes came to study corruption in Afghanistan and beyond

Why corruption can function as a connected system

The personal and professional costs of standing up for integrity

How corruption shapes public trust and political participation

What her work taught her about reform—and its limits

Why she is looking toward more creative ways of understanding our place in the world

Writer and former NPR correspondent Sarah Chayes joins David Jones and Naomi Murphy to discuss how corruption operates as a system—not merely as isolated acts of misconduct.

Drawing on her reporting in Afghanistan, her work advising senior US military commanders, and her books The Punishment of Virtue and Thieves of State, Chayes describes the networks that link money, power and political influence. She reflects on the risks faced by people who challenge corrupt systems, how public trust can erode, and why corruption should not be treated as a problem confined to other countries.

The conversation also explores her changing perspective on public institutions, the limits of reform, and where she finds hope in imagining new ways for society to relate to the living world.

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/585789/on-corruption-in-america-by-sarah-chayes/

In this episode

How Chayes came to study corruption in Afghanistan and beyond

Why corruption can function as a connected system

The personal and professional costs of standing up for integrity

How corruption shapes public trust and political participation

What her work taught her about reform—and its limits

Why she is looking toward more creative ways of understanding our place in the world

Dr Wayne Kampers is a consultant psychiatrist with over 35 years of medical experience, including 25 years in integrative psychiatry. He joins David Jones and Dr Naomi Murphy to explain how he treats complex PTSD with intravenous ketamine-assisted therapy.

He describes complex PTSD as a thousand-piece jigsaw puzzle thrown on the floor. No pieces are missing, but the picture is fractured. He explains why standard therapies often leave the deeper fractures untouched, and how ketamine, paired with integration work, can help people piece a connected sense of self back together.

In this episode

Why complex PTSD is so hard to treat, and why many patients first get other diagnoses, such as treatment-resistant depression

His six-week protocol: weekly IV ketamine sessions, each followed by an integration session with the same therapist (including EMDR)

What a session looks like, why the dose is increased across the six weeks, and why the therapist's role is to hold safe space

The "innate intellectual healer" and why every person's journey is different

Who may not be suitable, including contraindications and his approach to under-25s

Mindset work, intention setting and the therapeutic relationship

Recreational ketamine misuse versus medical use

Attitudes among psychiatrists, off-label prescribing, and why NHS access is limited

Dr Kampers's reflections on his own clinical work

Key moments

0:04: The innate intellectual healer

2:01: Why complex PTSD is so difficult to treat

6:57: How the six-week treatment works

14:59: What people experience on a journey

19:28: Who is a suitable candidate

22:11: Why the therapist relationship matters

28:34: Results and clinical insights

31:15: Attitudes in the profession

38:38: Barriers to NHS access

45:22: Personal reflections

Quotable

"Ketamine itself softens the rigid defenses so that the integration work can begin."

Please note

This episode is a conversation about one clinician's approach. It is not medical advice, and Dr Kampers stresses that ketamine is not for everybody. Any treatment decision should be made with a qualified healthcare professional.

Dr Wayne Kampers is a consultant psychiatrist with over 35 years of medical experience, including 25 years in integrative psychiatry. He joins David Jones and Dr Naomi Murphy to explain how he treats complex PTSD with intravenous ketamine-assisted therapy.

He describes complex PTSD as a thousand-piece jigsaw puzzle thrown on the floor. No pieces are missing, but the picture is fractured. He explains why standard therapies often leave the deeper fractures untouched, and how ketamine, paired with integration work, can help people piece a connected sense of self back together.

In this episode

Why complex PTSD is so hard to treat, and why many patients first get other diagnoses, such as treatment-resistant depression

His six-week protocol: weekly IV ketamine sessions, each followed by an integration session with the same therapist (including EMDR)

What a session looks like, why the dose is increased across the six weeks, and why the therapist's role is to hold safe space

The "innate intellectual healer" and why every person's journey is different

Who may not be suitable, including contraindications and his approach to under-25s

Mindset work, intention setting and the therapeutic relationship

Recreational ketamine misuse versus medical use

Attitudes among psychiatrists, off-label prescribing, and why NHS access is limited

Dr Kampers's reflections on his own clinical work

Key moments

0:04: The innate intellectual healer

2:01: Why complex PTSD is so difficult to treat

6:57: How the six-week treatment works

14:59: What people experience on a journey

19:28: Who is a suitable candidate

22:11: Why the therapist relationship matters

28:34: Results and clinical insights

31:15: Attitudes in the profession

38:38: Barriers to NHS access

45:22: Personal reflections

Quotable

"Ketamine itself softens the rigid defenses so that the integration work can begin."

Please note

This episode is a conversation about one clinician's approach. It is not medical advice, and Dr Kampers stresses that ketamine is not for everybody. Any treatment decision should be made with a qualified healthcare professional.

This episode explores how fear shapes therapy, forensic work, and everyday relationships. Dr Naomi Murphy and David Jones speak with Michael Guilding about his book Fear in the Therapy Room and why understanding the biology of fear matters for therapists, managers, and anyone working in high-stress environments.

Michael shares how his years in Royal Mail management and 30 years as a therapist led him to focus on fear responses, collapse, and regulation. The conversation also covers trauma-informed practice, why safety is essential for difficult conversations, and how connection helps counter threat.

https://hammersmithbooks.co.uk/product/fear-in-the-therapy-room/

https://michaelguilding.com/

Key topics

Michael Guilding’s path from Royal Mail management to 30 years as a therapist, including NHS leadership in primary care counselling

How his work with Una McCluskey, Dorothy Heard, Brian Lake, and attachment-based systems theory shaped his understanding of fear

Why fear is not just fight or flight, but also freeze, shutdown, and physical collapse

How shame can be understood as part of a fear-collapse response

The limits of standard regulation approaches when working with people with severe trauma

Peter Levine’s influence and the importance of recognizing collapse in trauma work

How fear and social engagement interact, and how safety cues can switch off threat responses

Why therapy, prisons, and other institutions can become fear-driven systems

What happens when organizations normalize humiliation, scapegoating, and unsafe authority

Practical ways to reduce fear through support, community, kindness, and awareness of bodily signals

Timestamps

00:00 - Introducing Michael Guilding and his book Fear in the Therapy Room

01:21 - What first drew Michael to fear as a clinical and personal focus

03:01 - Attachment theory, seven systems, and where fear fits

06:35 - Noticing fear in therapy and creating safer clinical spaces

08:19 - Shame, disgust, and fear across a spectrum of responses

10:09 - Why severe trauma required a broader model of fear

11:06 - The food poisoning collapse that clarified fear shutdown

13:36 - Why fear is hard to talk about in prisons and organizations

16:27 - How Michael makes therapy workshops safe enough for honesty

19:20 - Fear and social engagement as competing biological systems

21:53 - Trauma as widespread, not limited to specialist settings

23:47 - Warmth, trust, and why care can still feel threatening

28:39 - Fear in Royal Mail management and the signs of a fear-driven workplace

31:08 - The dismissal case that tested integrity and authority

34:48 - Working as a therapist in the NHS under cuts and scapegoating

39:01 - Helping non-therapists understand fear in prisons and hospitals

42:21 - Long-term health effects of chronic fear and stress

45:14 - Trauma release exercises and shaking as a reset mechanism

46:48 - When institutions are too unsafe to fix from within

48:42 - Whistleblowing, support networks, and surviving standoffs

50:33 - Managing news anxiety by staying connected and acting locally

52:14 - How Michael has looked after his own fear system over time

Notable quotes

"I see shame as part of a fear system."

"The main thing is keep connected. Be part of a community. Don't try and deal with this by yourself."

"If you can create safety, then therapists are fine to talk about fear."

Action items

Notice bodily signs of fear early, before they become shutdown or collapse

Use safety cues, warmth, and connection to reduce threat responses

In difficult workplaces, identify who can be trusted for support

Stay connected to community when news and politics feel overwhelming

Prioritize sleep, exercise, friendship, nature, and shared interests as ongoing regulation strategies