Behind the Wings

Air Force veteran Art Elser reveals what it took to fly low, slow, and exposed as a forward air controller during the Vietnam War.
In this episode, Host Rick Crandall talks with former forward air controller Art Elser about flying more than 400 combat missions in the Cessna O-2A Skymaster and O-1E Bird Dog. From directing air support over the Ho Chi Minh Trail to helping Special Forces teams under fire, Elser offers a personal account of aviation, fear, courage, responsibility, and the long journey home. This one is going to be cool!

What you’ll hear:
Inside the O-2 Skymaster: How a civilian aircraft became a flying observation post, radio relay, and target marker
The forward air controller mission: Why FAC pilots remained low over the battlefield after faster aircraft departed
O-1 Bird Dog vs. O-2 Skymaster: How the aircraft differed in handling, performance, and suitability for remote airstrips
Marking targets under fire: How Elser used white-phosphorus “Willie Pete” rockets to guide attacking aircraft
Over the Ho Chi Minh Trail: Searching for trucks, supply areas, choke points, and hidden movement beneath the jungle
Night operations: Using starlight scopes, Blind Bat flare ships, B-57 Canberras, and F-4 Phantoms to find targets in darkness
Becoming “Jake 44”: How Elser built personal relationships with the Special Forces teams who depended on him
Courage and coming home: What Elser learned about fear, character, loss, and carrying the war’s memories into civilian life
Learn More:
Read the full show notes on the Wings Over the Rockies website
Donate to Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum
Subscribe and leave a review to support the show
This episode is supported in part by United Airlines.

NASA’s RAVEN aircraft is helping researchers explore one of aviation’s biggest next steps: electric vertical takeoff and landing.
NASA’s RAVEN aircraft is helping researchers explore one of aviation’s biggest next steps: electric vertical takeoff and landing.
In this episode, Host Rick Crandall talks with NASA researchers Siena Whiteside and Jason Welstead about RAVEN, the Research Aircraft for eVTOL Enabling Technologies. From air taxis and regional mobility to noise, safety, hover-to-forward-flight transitions, and the challenge of scaling new aircraft designs, Sienna and Jason explain how NASA is building a flying laboratory for the future of advanced air mobility. This one is going to be cool!

🎧 What you’ll hear:
How eVTOL aircraft work: What electric vertical takeoff and landing means, and how these aircraft differ from helicopters and airplanes
What advanced air mobility means: How drones, air taxis, and regional aircraft fit into the future of transportation
Meet NASA’s RAVEN: Why NASA is building a remotely operated research aircraft to study eVTOL technology
Air taxi vs. flying car: Why eVTOLs are more likely to connect transportation hubs than replace your car
The safety challenge: Why public trust and certification are essential before eVTOLs become common
Noise and community impact: How researchers are studying aircraft sound, not just loudness
Hover to forward flight: Why the transition from vertical lift to wing-borne flight is one of the hardest problems to solve
Why size matters: How RAVEN bridges the gap between small models and full-scale passenger aircraft
Open eVTOL research: How NASA hopes to share data with universities, startups, and industry partners
Advice for future aerospace engineers: Why broad experience and curiosity matter in a fast-changing field
Learn More:
Read the full show notes on the Wings Over the Rockies website
Donate to Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum
Subscribe and leave a review to support the show

This episode is supported in part by United Airlines.

Rob “Z-Man” Zettel shares his story from inside one of the Air Force’s most secret Cold War programs, Project Constant Peg.

In this episode, Host Rick Crandall talks with Z-Man, a retired U.S. Air Force fighter pilot and former member of the legendary 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron, the “Red Eagles,” about what it was like to fly real Soviet MiG fighters in the Nevada desert. From the F-4 Phantom and F-5 aggressors to the MiG-21 and MiG-23 at Tonopah Test Range, Zettel offers a firsthand look inside the classified program designed to train American pilots against the real thing. This one is going to be cool!

🎧 What you’ll hear:
How Vietnam changed air combat training: Why the Air Force realized pilots needed to train against real adversary aircraft
 Getting recruited into Constant Peg: The mysterious selection process and entering one of the Air Force’s most secret programs
 First time flying a MiG: Learning Soviet fighters with Russian-labeled controls and almost no manuals
 MiG-21 vs. MiG-23: The strengths, weaknesses, and personalities of the Soviet fighters compared to American jets
 Flying against America’s best: Training Weapons School, Topgun, and frontline fighter crews in real MiGs
 Life inside Tonopah Test Range: The secrecy, satellite windows, and culture surrounding the Red Eagles
 The psychology behind Constant Peg: How the program eliminated “buck fever” before real combat
 What the MiGs taught the Air Force: Lessons in maneuvering, energy fighting, and defeating Soviet tactics
 The maintainers behind the mission: Why keeping the MiGs flying required “miracles” from the ground crews
 The legacy of Constant Peg: Why Z-Man believes the program transformed U.S. air superiority for decades to come
Learn More:
Read the full show notes on the Wings Over the Rockies website
Donate to Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum
Subscribe and leave a review to support the show
This episode is supported in part by United Airlines.

Jim “JB” Bell shares his story from inside one of the Air Force’s most secret Cold War programs, Project Constant Peg.

In this episode, Host Rick Crandall talks with Jim, a retired crew chief of the legendary 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron, about what it took to keep MiG fighters flying in the Nevada desert. From maintaining MiG-17s, MiG-21s, and MiG-23s at Tonopah Test Range to flying on unmarked C-5s into China and bringing home F-7 fighters, Bell offers a rare perspective on one of the most classified adversary air programs in U.S. Air Force history. This one is going to be cool!

🎧 What you’ll hear:
How Bell got recruited into Constant Peg: From a chance meeting in a bar at Nellis to joining the secretive 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron
From F-4 Phantom to MiGs: Why working on Soviet fighters was completely different from traditional Air Force maintenance
What Constant Peg was built to solve: How Vietnam exposed the need for American pilots to train against real adversary aircraft
Learning to fix MiGs with no manuals: Trial and error, machine shops, scrounging parts, and building solutions from scratch
MiG-21 vs. MiG-23: Why the MiG-21 was reliable and rugged while the MiG-23 became a constant maintenance challenge
The crew chief mindset: What it meant to fully “own” an aircraft and why trust between pilots and maintainers mattered
China missions and unmarked C-5s: Traveling to Beijing in civilian clothes to recover Chinese-built F-7 fighters for the program
Life at Area 52: Working inside Tonopah Test Range alongside the early stealth programs and living inside a world of total secrecy
How Constant Peg changed air combat: Why Bell believes the program saved lives and gave American pilots a critical edge
The end of the program—and why it still matters: Why Constant Peg ended and why Bell believes a modern version should still exist today
Learn More:
Read the full show notes on the Wings Over the Rockies website
Donate to Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum
Subscribe and leave a review to support the show

This episode is supported in part by United Airlines.

Major General John Barry shares his story of leadership through some of the most consequential moments in modern aerospace and national security history.

In this episode, Host Rick Crandall talks with John Barry, a fighter pilot, combat leader, former NASA official, and retired U.S. Air Force Major General. From Cold War alert missions in the F-4 Phantom to command at Luke Air Force Base, from surviving the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon to helping investigate the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster, Barry reflects on a career shaped by what he calls “windows in history.” This one is going to be cool!

🎧 What you’ll hear:
From the Bronx to the Air Force Academy: The unexpected path that launched Barry’s career
The F-4 Phantom and Cold War Europe: Going from dead asleep to airborne in five minutes while sitting nuclear alert
 A lesson in restraint: The near-shootdown that shaped how he identified targets in combat
 Nellis, Red Flag, and flying against MiGs: How realism in training changed the fight
 NASA and Challenger: What he learned watching an organization in crisis
 Command in Turkey: Rebuilding trust after tragedy while flying combat missions over Iraq
 Luke Air Force Base: Leading the largest fighter wing in the world and confronting dangerous F-16 engine failures
 Leadership in practice: Why “make it better than you found it” became his guiding principle
 Inside the Pentagon on 9/11: Evacuation, shock, and leadership in the immediate aftermath
 Investigating Columbia: The technical failure, the cultural breakdowns, and the “echoes of Challenger”
Key takeaway:
Preparation, humility, accountability, and the willingness to learn from history are what allow leaders and institutions to respond when the stakes are highest.

Learn More:
 Read the full show notes on the Wings Over the Rockies website
 Donate to Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum
 Subscribe and leave a review to support the show
This episode is supported in part by United Airlines.