The Fourth Curtain

If your hilarious party game is laced with snark you know the work of this week's guest, Jackbox CEO Mike Bilder. One of the legion of the Midway diaspora, he saw the transition from coin-op to console. We discuss drive vs crunch, streaming platforms, and the human touch - this week!
TIMESTAMPS
[0:04:38] Intro: Mike Bilder
[0:06:25] From Learn Television to Jackbox: The Full Company History
Mike explains Jackbox’s origin story; he traces it from Jellyvision to You Don't Know Jack to Jackbox Games.
[0:10:10] AI, Writers, and the Jackbox Principles: What Makes Jackbox Uniquely Human
Mike explains their commitment to human-written comedy and game writers in a world of AI.
[0:15:19] Early Career: From Motorola to Midway
Hosts ask about Mike's first jobs; he shares his CS background, persistence breaking into game development, and meeting his wife on a Motorola work trip.
[0:32:02] Nine Years at Midway: Coin-Op, NFL Blitz, and the Politics of an NFL License
Mike covers what it was like at Midway, the culture, a forced pivot, and ultimately losing the NFL license.
[0:45:00] The Art of the Pivot: How Jackbox Thinks About Innovation and What's Next
Mike discusses the pattern of reinvention across Midway and Jackbox, staying fresh with party packs, and third-party publishing.
[0:51:02] Platforms, Netflix, and the Race to Be Everywhere: Jackbox's Distribution Strategy
Mike explains the licensing model, the platform expansion, streaming ambitions, and the Twitch audience mode origin story.
[1:04:52] Mike's Superpower: From Engineer to Producer to CEO
Alex asks Mike to name his superpower; Mike reflects on problem-solving, leading from passion, and 18 years of bringing joy through party games.
[0:06:58] Outro: Wrapping Up
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain
Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

We have an insight-packed and hopeful discussion with Owen Mahoney, CEO of Maplestory's Nexon. This Choplifter fan went on to acquire JAMDAT and DICE for EA, then saw the future with Embark. We discuss forever games, where stories come from and the huge growth coming - this week!
TIMESTAMPS
[0:00:00] Intro: Owen Mahoney
[0:10:22] Medium shifts favor beginners
Owen explains why every major technology shift benefits newcomers.
[0:19:33] An “unusual background”
Owen describes his and Nexon’s “unusual backgrounds,” and how they got started. 
[0:33:23] Most pitches are a product problem, not a marketing problem
"90% of the deals that I looked at to build a game... look very similar to something that was already out there in the market. So a lot of what people are calling a marketing problem are in fact a product problem."
[0:42:37] Tried to buy Nexon three times at EA
Owen reveals he tried to acquire Nexon three times while at EA, and eventually ended up joining them as CFO instead — including nearly landing Riot Games before being outbid by Tencent.
[0:48:23] The "forever franchise" thesis behind Embark
Owen explains the concept of "forever franchises" — games that don't have to peak and decline — and how that philosophy was central to their success and investments.
[0:52:55] The industry inverts good game development
Owen argues that big-budget game development is built backwards: studios front-load expensive art to get green-lights, while leaving the actual "find the fun" iteration — the most important part — until the end.
[1:04:11] New technology always creates new kinds of game makers
Owen's closing argument on the industry's future: 
"Every generation comes with its new set of innovators."
[1:08:40] Outro: Wrapping Up

Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain
Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

We're hyped to talk secrets with Billy Basso, creator of the award-winning smash Animal Well. Beginning with educational and medical games he went on to solo develop Animal Well, which delivers a huge game in less than 40 MB. Surgery, celebrity and an ARG - this week!
TIMESTAMPS
[0:00:00] Intro: Billy Basso
An introduction to Billy Basso, developer of Animal Well.
[0:07:54] Choosing film school over game dev
Billy reveals he went to film school because he "deep down wanted to make video games" but didn't think it was a viable career path — setting up the arc of his whole story.
[0:12:28] Checking out the entire company repo: Billy’s first game job
On his first day at Phosphor Games, Billy accidentally locked every art asset the company had ever made by checking out the entire source control depot
[0:15:30] How making games for doctors shaped his design philosophy
Billy reflects that working on educational games deeply informed how he thinks about game design: what has the player learned, and are you testing them along the way?
[0:21:17] Mobile games felt like casino design
After years making monetization-heavy mobile games, Billy describes realizing he was building "a casino game, not a video game,” which became his motivation to make Animal Well.
[0:34:57] Animal Well started as a side project at Level X
Billy reveals he was already prototyping Animal Well during his Level X job interview, getting up a few hours early every morning for years to chip away at it before going to work.
[0:45:43] Tunic raised the bar and stressed him out
When Tunic launched while he was mid-development, Billy saw major parallels to what he was building. While it was inspiring, it was also intimidating.
[0:51:21] Cold-emailing Dan Adelman changed everything
After watching a documentary about Axiom Verge, Billy sent a cold email to industry veteran Dan Adelman (one of the only times in his life he's done that), which became the turning point for getting Animal Well to market.
[1:06:25] Dunkey's announcement brought 100K wishlists in a day
When Dunkey announced Animal Well as Bigmode's first game, it generated 100,000 Steam wishlists in a single day — after Billy had spent years slowly building to 25,000.
[1:16:27] Outro: Wrapping Up
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain
Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

We kick off Season 4 with Patrick Söderlund, CEO/founder of Embark Studios and maker of the hit Arc Raiders. Former head of DICE and Battlefield at EA, he found faster ways to build. We discuss owing the community, AI, and incredible value - this week! 
[00:00:00] Intro: Patrick Söderlund
[00:13:23] The recipe for games people want to play
Patrick explains that the core motivation isn't money, it's finding the recipe that makes people want to come back. He'd go stand in midnight launch lines just to feel what players felt.
[00:18:25] 12 years at EA and why he left
Patrick describes staying longer than planned, and ultimately leaving because he missed being close to the creative and building process, not because of the company.
[00:21:22] What was missing: the building process
Patrick explains the inner dialogue of walking away from a senior exec role – he knew he'd drifted too far from creation and needed to get back to it.
[00:23:12] Battlefront II and its launch
Patrick talks about a game that deserved a better launch, while noting it's still beloved today and holds up visually.
[00:28:17] The 100X pipeline challenge at Embark
Rather than trying to make things 10X better (which just leads to patching old tools), Patrick challenged his team to think 100X faster — forcing them to throw out all assumptions and reinvent their content pipeline from scratch.
[00:39:19] Why Arc Raiders uses robots, not humanoids
A deliberate design decision and the production cycle in action: how robots let the team hide quirks and unexpected behavior, discovering players don't have preconceived notions of how a machine "should" move. This also drove deep investment in reinforcement learning for AI enemies.
[00:56:41] Patrick's measured take on AI in game development
He separates automating tedious tasks from replacing creative talent, acknowledges the sensitivity around AI voices, and argues the industry needs to understand the full ecosystem before passing harsh judgment.
[1:04:55] The Super Mario Bros. moment that started it all
At 12 or 13, renting an NES at a gas station and discovering Super Mario Bros. gave Patrick the same sense of limitless wonder he imagines kids feel playing GTA today — and he decided right then he had to make games.
[01:13:14] Outro: Wrapping Up
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain
Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our intrepid hosts provide a prologue to the fourth season of the podcast with a wide-ranging conversation on the state of the videogame industry. With appreciation for GDC, Resident Evil 9 and Phil Spencer, they also talk (of course) AI and signs we may finally be exiting the trough - this week!
Support the show
Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com
Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain
Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com
Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Kimya Taheri
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505