It Was What It Was : The Football History Podcast

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue their Kevin Keegan series, following his 1977 move from Liverpool to Hamburg for a far higher salary and the difficult start marked by teammate resentment, managerial upheaval, a humiliating Super Cup loss at Anfield, and an eight-week ban after he struck a defender in a friendly at Lübeck. They chart his turnaround under Branko Zebec as Hamburg win the Bundesliga in 1978–79, Keegan becomes a German celebrity, learns the language, and wins the Ballon d’Or twice, before turning down Juventus and returning to England with an underwhelming Southampton spell and a breakdown with Lawrie McMenemy. The episode also covers Keegan’s burdened England captaincy amid missed World Cups, including a beating by Yugoslav police, threats in Belfast, Euro 1980, and injury-hit World Cup 1982, before his high-profile move to Second Division Newcastle, the lift he gives the city, and his retirement after a sobering FA Cup loss to Liverpool.

00:00 Keegan Cashes In
01:06 Hamburg Move Explained
01:39 The Bubble Perm Era
03:40 Frosty Dressing Room
06:36 Lübeck Punch Up
09:46 Backlash and Doubts
10:58 Turning Point Return
12:01 Zebec Sparks Revival
14:03 Pop Star in Germany
17:20 Ballon d'Or Debate
21:12 European Cup Heartbreak
23:14 Shock Southampton Switch
25:07 Saints Reality Check
27:22 Keegan Takes Criticism Personally
28:27 England Captain Burden
30:38 Poland Wembley Heartbreak
31:47 Belgrade Police Beating
34:20 Euro 1980 Chaos
35:38 Thatcher Photo Fallout
36:51 IRA Threats Belfast
40:28 World Cup 1982 Injury
43:50 Newcastle Homecoming Move
46:52 Robson Drops Keegan
49:31 Keegan Lifts Newcastle
55:12 Lawrenson Moment Retirement
55:54 Helicopter Farewell Wrap

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*The full three-part series is available on Patreon now*

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper pay tribute to Kevin Keegan, who died in July aged 75, reflecting on his rare charisma, self-awareness, and ability to connect with people, as well as his status as the only British player to win the Ballon d’Or twice. They trace his working-class upbringing in Armthorpe near Doncaster, his family’s mining and Labour roots, and formative influences like Sister Mary Oliver, who encouraged his football. The episode follows Keegan’s unlikely early path—rejected by Doncaster and Coventry, starting at Scunthorpe—through his move to Liverpool under Bill Shankly, where his fitness, motivation, and partnership with John Toshack helped drive major success, alongside growing fame via endorsements and Superstars. They end with Keegan’s decision to leave as Liverpool approach European glory.

00:00 Tribute to Keegan
01:09 Charisma and Kindness
06:19 Roots in Doncaster
09:14 Mining Heritage
15:22 School and Sweetheart
22:21 Rejected Then Spotted
24:28 Scunthorpe Breakthrough
28:18 Move to Liverpool
30:03 Negotiating His Worth
33:34 Late Arrival Debut
35:22 Toshack Partnership
35:47 Sweat Box Fitness
37:10 Telepathy Test Hoax
40:12 Shankly Mind Games
41:46 Celebrity Endorsements
47:26 Superstars Bike Crash
49:48 Trophies And Turning Point
54:44 Shankly Leaves Fallout
57:34 European Peak Exit Plan
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The fourth and final episode in Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper's Total Football series explores Ajax’s remarkable success under Stefan Kovacs and the Netherlands’ unforgettable 1974 World Cup campaign.

Kovacs inherited Rinus Michels’ European champions but allowed the side’s fluid, player-led style to evolve. Ajax continued to win major honours, including two European Cups, but growing player power and Johan Cruyff’s influence created tensions beneath the success. As internal divisions deepened, Kovacs left, Cruyff departed for Barcelona, and Ajax’s golden era began to unravel.

Enter the 1974 World Cup. Despite a difficult qualification process and a squad shaped by rivalries, Michels and Cruyff assembled a side that thrilled the world. They swept past Argentina, overcame Brazil in a fiercely contested encounter, and brought Total Football to its global peak.

But in the final against hosts West Germany, an early lead was not enough. Off-pitch distractions, overconfidence and German resilience contributed to a famous 2–1 defeat.

The Dutch did not lift the World Cup, but their legacy was greater than a single trophy: Total Football transformed how the modern game is played.
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In part three of our Total Football series, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper arrive at Ajax’s golden age.

They explore Johan Cruyff’s development: the precocious teenager shaped by Ajax, Vic Buckingham and Rinus Michels; a player whose extraordinary understanding of space, timing and tactics made him the ultimate expression of individuality within a system.

The episode unpicks how Ajax’s 4-3-3 worked in practice. Positional rotations, an aggressive offside trap, collective pressing and the instinctive relationships built through years of playing together.

Jonathan also examines the uncomfortable questions around fitness, sports science and alleged stimulant use in the era, before charting Ajax’s first European Cup triumph in 1971 and the arrival of Ștefan Kovács after Michels’ departure for Barcelona.

This is the story of how a brilliant group of players, led by Cruyff, turned a tactical idea into the most influential team in European football.

You can listen to all the Total Football episodes early right now, here on Patreon. Enjoy.
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*You can listen to the full episode on our Patreon*

Rob Draper hosts a bonus edition of It Was What It Was with Jamie Carragher stepping in to pay tribute to the late great Franco Baresi .
Carragher explains why Baresi’s name is passed down through generations, calls him the greatest defender he’s ever seen, and hails Sacchi’s AC Milan as the greatest team until Guardiola’s Barcelona, with Baresi and Maldini central to a back four that revolutionised modern football through pressing, a high line and the shift away from the sweeper system.
They discuss Baresi’s unique blend of sweeper elegance and aggressive defending in a back four, his extraordinary return from a knee injury for the 1994 World Cup final against Romario, and how his football brain overcame a lack of height. Carragher also shares meeting Baresi at a Milan derby and showing his signed Baresi shirts.

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