It Was What It Was : The Football History Podcast

To listen to the full four-part series instantly, subscribe to our Patreon where listeners can enjoy ad-free listening, our World Cup Wednesdays, bonus editions and live Q&A episodes.

Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson continue their four-part series on England’s 1966 World Cup win by tracing how Alf Ramsey’s team took shape amid low expectations and press criticism after a 3–2 Wembley loss to Austria. They discuss doubts over the 4-2-4, Bobby Charlton’s role, and growing concerns about Jimmy Greaves’ form, before key friendlies reveal Ramsey’s “wingless wonders” approach: a 4-1-3-2/4-3-3 hybrid showcased in Spain and then unveiled dramatically in Poland with the surprise inclusion of Martin Peters. At the World Cup, Ramsey initially reverts to wingers, drawing 0–0 with Uruguay, then beating Mexico 2–0 via a standout Bobby Charlton strike and France 2–0 with Roger Hunt’s goals. Two shadows emerge: Nobby Stiles’ violent conduct against France and Greaves’ shin injury that rules him out of the quarterfinal, opening the door for Geoff Hurst.

00:00 England Written Off
01:48 Austria Defeat Fallout
04:17 Ramsey Rethinks Tactics
07:47 Greaves Under Scrutiny
10:24 Spain Reveals Wingless Plan
15:08 Poland Test and Peters Shock
20:43 Hiding the System
22:21 World Cup Opener Uruguay
25:49 Uruguay Stalemate Fallout
26:49 Meet J L Manning
28:58 Tactics Jargon Backlash
32:24 Mexico Magic Moment
33:15 Charlton Screamer Breakdown
36:18 France Win And Rotation
39:04 Stiles Controversy And FA Row
42:36 Greaves Injury Hurst Opportunity
44:50 Greaves Debate Luxury Player
50:05 Next Episode And Patreon Plug
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To listen to the full four-part series instantly, subscribe to our Patreon where listeners can enjoy ad-free listening, our World Cup Wednesdays, bonus editions and live Q&A episodes.

Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson begin a four-part series revisiting England’s 1966 World Cup win by focusing on Sir Alf Ramsey’s background and the conservative England setup he inherited, including the FA selection committee and a poor early World Cup record. They argue Ramsey, often caricatured as dour, was socially conservative and xenophobic but tactically radical, demanding control of selection and modernizing England with a system-focused approach influenced by his Ipswich success, zonal marking, and experiments that questioned traditional wingers. They discuss his reserved personality, class and heritage issues, a reported instance of backing a player convicted of gross indecency, and why blaming 1966 for later English insularity is misguided. Ramsey’s early England results are mixed, but a 1964 Brazil trip helps crystallize his shift away from 4-2-4, and by April 1965 the emerging core includes Banks, Moore, Jack Charlton, and Nobby Stiles.

00:00 Meet Alf Ramsey
01:49 Ipswich Miracle Title
03:28 Ending Selection Committees
05:20 England World Cup Woes
06:50 Dour Yet Radical
09:23 Xenophobia And Origins
14:14 Was 1966 A Curse
17:28 Ramsey Playing Roots
20:36 Ipswich Tactical Experiments
24:38 Brutalism And Football
27:27 Brutalism Meets Football
31:21 Ramsey Blueprint Emerges
33:02 First Camp Shock Therapy
36:43 Early Results and Doubts
40:05 Brazil Trip Reality Check
40:43 Curfew Crackdown
46:16 Tactics Shift and New Spine
47:51 Jack Charlton and Stiles Debut
53:19 Foundations of 1966
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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by Tim Vickery to discuss the extraordinary story of Brazil at the World Cup.
From the ultra-nationalism and hysteria of 1938, to the trauma of the Maracanazo in 1950, and the glorious Pelé years that forged a nation's identity between 1958 and 1970. Vickery traces every Brazilian World Cup campaign.
Drawing on his new book Mundiales, Vickery offers a uniquely South American perspective on how the beautiful game's most celebrated nation has wrestled with myth, race, politics, and tactical evolution across nearly a century of football.
With the 2026 World Cup on the horizon and Carlo Ancelotti now at the helm, can Brazil rediscover their identity, or has the ghost of 1970 become an impossible standard?

00:00 Introduction — Tim Vickery Joins from Rio
06:30 The Myth of Samba Football
13:00 1938, Radio, and Tropical Nationalism
19:30 1950, The Maracanazo and a Nation's Trauma
27:00 1954, The Battle of Bern and Revenge Football
31:30 1958, Meticulous Planning, Pelé, and Redemption
37:20 The Post-1970 Identity Crisis
41:00 1982, Failure and a Lost Midfield Art
47:00 The Domestic Decline of Brazilian Coaching
49:30 Qatar 2022, Were Brazil Really That Far Off?
52:00 Carlo Ancelotti and the 2026 World Cup
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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper pick their six greatest European Cup and Champions League finals of all time.

From the 127,000 who stayed to applaud Real Madrid's 7-3 demolition of Eintracht Frankfurt in 1960, to Ajax passing Juventus into submission in 1973 and Pep Guardiola's Barcelona spearheaded by Xavi flying to the title at Wembley in 2011.

Wilson and Draper trace the tactical revolutions, romantic triumphs, and spectacular collapses that defined European football's greatest competition.

With Arsenal facing PSG in this week's Champions League final, will Mikel Arteta join the elite list of managers who have won Europes’s elite competition or will Luis Enrique go back to back with PSG?

00:00 Introduction — Champions League Final Week
06:30 Real Madrid 7-3 Eintracht Frankfurt (1960)
19:20 Ajax 1-0 Juventus (1973)
34:50 AC Milan 4-0 Barcelona (1994)
42:15 Celtic 2-1 Inter Milan (1967)
53:40 Barcelona 3-1 Manchester United (2011)
58:10 Benfica 5-3 Real Madrid (1962)
01:03:20 Why Not 1999 or 2005? — And Can PSG Become an All-Time Great?
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Listen to the Full Episode on the IWWIW Patreon here...

In this Patreon special of It Was What It Was, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper speak with Jonathan Northcroft about the updated paperback edition of their Gareth Southgate book, retitled Inside England, which adds four new chapters. They discuss Southgate’s cultural reset, including the Royal Marines camp at Lympstone, and trace the deeper roots of England’s revival through reforms such as EPPP and England DNA, alongside figures like Dan Ashworth, Dave Redding, Trevor Brooking and Greg Dyke’s 2022 World Cup target. They cover how improved youth development, psychology and data-led penalty preparation helped transform England into a resilient tournament team, before assessing Euro 2024’s tactical problems and the FA’s decision to appoint Thomas Tuchel for “wow factor” and elite coaching. They end by weighing concerns about recent friendlies, squad management and camp culture heading into the World Cup.
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